Gender neutrality: actress vs actor
Over recent months an edit war of sorts is developing in the articles relating to female members of the acting profession, both living and deceased. An increasing number of editors feel that the term actress is demeaning and alter it to actor, when it will immediately be reversed. I have no particular preference but feel that it is approaching a time where a consensus would clarify the matter. The wiki article for 'actor' currently says:
The word actor refers to a person who acts regardless of gender, while actress refers specifically to a female who acts, therefore a female can be both. The Oxford English Dictionary states that originally "'actor' was used for both sexes". The English word actress does not derive from the Latin actrix, probably not even by way of French actrice; according to the Oxford English Dictionary, actress was "probably formed independently" in English. As actress is a specifically feminine word, some feminists assert that the word is sexist. Gender-neutral usage of actor has re-emerged in modern English, especially when referring to male and female performers collectively, but actress remains a commonly used word.
Is a MOS consensus possible or desirable to reduce the level of edit reversals? 21stCenturyGreenstuff (talk) 20:02, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
Does Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_101#"actor" vs. "actress" help? - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 02:53, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
Erm well, many thanks for the steer...but quite frankly no it did not help one little bit. As I said before I have no personal preference either way, but I have a few dozen female thespians in my watch list and there is a daily parade of warring changes between actor and actress. It is a nuisance and a nonsense and will only get worse until some kind of firmer guideline is established that editors can work to. As many others will do I came to the manual of style for that guidance and have come away empty handed. Frankly the discussion you referred me to was nothing much more than a head in the sand "if we ignore it, it does not exist" attitude. Disappointing to say the least, but Oh well...which patch of sand is free for me to insert my head into? 21stCenturyGreenstuff (talk) 03:21, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
As a retired theatrical worker I know that many female performers have a strong personal preference for one word or the other (and have been on the receiving end of an earwigging or two if I used the wrong word in a publicity proof.)
I would suggest therefore that it is wrong to make an absolute policy one way or the other, so I'd propose the following guideline:
- If there is a source which demonstrates that an individual uses one or other word to descibe themself, we should use that in the article on them. It is the standard level of respect due in biographical articles.
- If an individual was active in an era when usage of one term was near-universal, then we should use that term. e.g. to refer to a 19th century actrss as an actor is anachronistic. (I'm aware that this argument doesn't hold for all period words - some have become completely unacceptable, and you couldn't justify the use of, say, nigger by such means). No one has offered sources that indicate that actress is considered offensive by a majority.
- Otherwise we should stick to first major usage in the article, as we do with spelling differences.
dramatic (talk) 03:53, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
Suggestions 1 and 2 are excellent, eg Helen Mirren who has never referred to herself as anything but an actor. But 3 would not stop the endless changes back and fore....but I am off to reinsert my head in this handy bucket of sand. 21stCenturyGreenstuff (talk) 03:59, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
Dramatic's suggestion actually sounds sort of reasonable. I would suggest notifying Wikipedia:WikiProject Films and Wikipedia:WikiProject Theatre to get a range of informed opinion. As for the fact that it won't stop all edit wars, too bad. It won't cure cancer either. The capabilities of the MoS are what they are. In any case the first-major-version solution works reasonably well for the Yank–Brit thing so I don't know why it can't work here. --Trovatore (talk) 04:07, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
- I have a personal distaste for marked female terms, especially when they are morphologically converted from male form—which is thus cast as the default, the natural form. However, I suppose WP needs to respect the wishes of the subjects, if some women insist/insisted on referring to themselves as "an actress". If I had a magic wand, MoS would encourage the use of "actor" regardless of gender, thereby avoiding the implication that the male form is the natural form. However, I don't at this stage want to bother doing battle with people who feel more comfortable in a gender-unequal world, and who are happy for lexical forms to do their bidding. Tony (talk) 12:40, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
- Good; of course Ellen Terry was an actress. (For what it's worth, very early Restoration English used actor for both sexes, as in Latin.) The assumption that differentiation requires inequality is imaginary; we don't need any magic wands here, just plain English. The correct guide, therefore, is to call the thespian what our sources call her; when she has a marked preference, they will usually follow. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:05, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
And of course there is the Academy Award "Best Actress", isn't there?--Jchthys (talk) 18:15, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
I think dramatic's idea-or at least the first two points-is fantastic. And i'm a woman and a feminist who would rather be called actress 'cause it sounds nicer! I don't think just because it separates us it automatically implies inferiority! It's the people who have the problem with the word that demonise it. But that's just my opinion. That was my first serious discussion post-scary! I'm not used to this yet! Deadlego (talk) 17:50, 25 January 2009 (UTC)